Episode 5: Mobilizing against Malaria

Marvi Rebueno-Trudeau is the Deputy-Executive Director of the Pilipinas Shell Foundation. She initially studied business management and funded a firm which represented foreign companies at the Asian Development Bank. After some years she retired to Palawan, an island in the Philippines archipelago. Once there she was moved to come out of retirement in order to address various social issues in the community, namely malnutrition and high rates of malaria. She joined Pilipinas Shell Foundation, which funded a community-based, province wide malaria program. The success of this malaria program enabled the foundation to be selected as a primary recipient of further grants from the Global Fund to fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. She joins us from Palawan, Philippines.

We speak about:

• a community based approach to malaria prevention, detection and treatment

• the importance of fostering the buy-in of government partners

• using the malaria program as a catalyst for system wide health strengthening

• embodying transparency and accountability

• the role of the private sector in community development

• ensuring sustainability in programming - and much more!

Transcript

Intro: You know, you have to build trust. And the trust is when you are consistent with your message. You are transparent. I think when everybody sees that - from the governors, from the provincial government, to the municipal government, and even the communities that you help, and they see that you're there as a helping hand, and not, you know, somebody who is lording them around.

Safa: Welcome back to the Rethinking Development podcast. My name is Safa, and I'm your host. Thank you for joining me as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all career stages and organizational affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through the lived experiences and personal reflections of different guests. Today I'm in conversation with Marvi Rebueno-Trudeau, the Deputy-Executive Director of the Pilipinas Shell Foundation. Marvi initially studied business management and funded a firm which represented foreign companies at the Asian Development Bank. After some years she and her husband retired to Palawan, an island in the Philippines archipelago. Once there she was moved to come out of retirement in order to address various social issues in the community, namely malnutrition and high rates of malaria. She was instrumental in planning and finding financing for the first province wide anti-malaria project. Marvi later joined the Philippines Shell Foundation, which funded a community-based, province wide malaria program. The success of this malaria program enabled the foundation to be selected as a primary recipient of further grants from the Global Fund to fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. Recently, they've also begun to work on addressing HIV in the region and in the country. Marvi, thank you so much for speaking with me today.

Marvi: Thank your Safa for the invitation. Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to be here.

Safa: Thank you so much. So to begin with, could you share a bit with us about your background and some of the experiences that prompted you to come out of retirement?

Marvi: Well, I come from a very big family of 11. I have 10 siblings. And I don't think we can be classified as very poor - but we were not rich. And with 11 kids in the family, you know how hard it's going to be. And so my father wanted me to be a doctor. And I knew that was going to be a very expensive course. And I wanted to help the family as soon as possible. So I took up social sciences, which probably gave me the better understanding of people and how people behave, and the like. And then I went to further my education by getting into business management, and international management. And so growing up in a big family, where resources are scarse, I still saw my parents and my brothers and sisters helping out the communities. So I grew up in a family, in a home that basically looks at helping as part of our lives. So when I got to Palawan, I saw a lot of the social inequities, as you said, malnutrition. And I couldn't believe why are they malnourished when there's a lot of fish with all of the seas around us. And there's a lot of land that seemed to be unattended. And so I started talking to basically the women of the community and told them that, you know, you can have backyard gardening. And so people thought of me, as you know, what are you trying to do? And I'm just saying that there are many ways of having a better life - I think, because that's how I grew up. We were living in a nice village. But we were the source of vegetables in the village, because we were planting our own vegetables. We had a few heads of chicken for our eggs and the like. And we were living in Metro Manila. And I don't see why in a provincial setting such as Palawan, this cannot be done. And so that's basically where I came from. And having the example of growing up that way, it was easier for me to talk to people, easier for me to relate - that, you know, I know what hardship is. And I know that it may be a difficult life, but we can survive it. And I would stand up and be an example to them. And I found out that the place that we chose to be our home has the highest incidence of malaria in the country. And so when people just take the medicines, like a common cold, I know that there's going to be a lot of problems by doing that self medication. And self medication, like a common cold, is not right. The folktales where that you get malaria from eating pineapple on an empty stomach. Or drinking coconut water in an empty stomach, and a lot of all of these fallacies - so I think, those were the things that pushed me to go into social development. And although the government has projects in the province, and they have very good projects, I think the implementation usually is where it breaks down. Because it is not something that the community takes as their own. And therefore it breaks down because it's something that is usually rammed to their throats that we should be doing it. And people, when you ram it through their throats, they have a very negative way of responding. But I think if they understand why they're doing it, and have ownership of the intervention, you can promote a lot of things when they understand what it's for. So when I started talking to them about, do you understand that the malaria is really coming from a parasite that is being transmitted by a mosquito - and to them that was like, you know, a revelation, but they didn't believe me. So I realized that the community that I was living in needed a lot of help. And because I saw myself as retired when I came to Palawan, I had all the time to help, right? I mean, how can you ignore these things when you know that you can provide them the better knowledge and better understanding of what causes all of the hardships that they are in. And before I knew it, I was in the thick of it. And so when you see the provincial government about the malaria program. They said it's a cause for concern, but we don't have the funds for it. So I said, I am volunteering to look for the funds. And because I did not have anything on my plate at that time, I came in retired, I had all of the time to look for funding. And it was a very opportune time because Shell was going to come in with this big gas project. And I said, well, there's one opportunity. So I presented it to Shell Philippines Exploration, and I got my first $1 million dollars. I was only asking actually for 10 million pesos, which was about $200,000 US dollars. And then they asked me, if we give you the $200,000 or 10 million pesos, how do you propose to cover the rest of the project? I said, if I can convince you that this is a project to invest in, I said, I'm sure I can convince any other private sector in Palawan, who are working in Palawan, because this is a common scourge, and it's a long scourge. Everybody thinks that malaria is a common cold. And so if we can put up a provincial project, then I know that we can make an impact, a province wide malaria program that will finally help the province with this scourge. And then they turned around and they said, well, I think we will give you the entire fund. But we want you to be the Program Director. And I said, you know, I can't just say yes right away. I said, I have to talk to the province, the governor, the provincial government, to see where they want to bring this forward, knowing that there's now a fund. And they agreed that I should be the Director, I had all of the ideas, I had all of the passion to do it. And I had all of the time to do it. So that was the start of my career.

Safa: Yeah, very interesting. And it's so unique in your case that you had actually retired, you had close the chapter on your work life, you've moved to Palawan. But because of the social issues you saw in your community, you were moved to get involved. And you know, you spoke with the government, you applied for funding, you were awarded the $1 million initially, you were appointed Director of the program. So could you share a bit with us about how you felt about being given that responsibility and having to then put the funds you received into action in collaboration with all the other stakeholders?

Marvi: Well, the first thing to do actually is to get the buy-in of everyone. I didn't think that, you know, that I can do it alone. There's absolutely no way I can do it alone. And you know, when you have 1700 Islands in this province, and there's 23 municipalities in one city, so each of those local government units you will have to discuss with. And so the first thing I asked the governor and the vice governor then was: can you call the mayors, and I want to present the project, I already had the $1 million, but how do I implement it? I knew that the provincial government was going to fully support me on this, but you still need the buy-in of all of the mayors of all of these little towns in the province. And so there was an opportunity where they had a provincial meet. And I asked for two hours with the mayors. And a lot of them did not believe that malaria can be eliminated. Because they said, once you have malaria, you have you have it for the rest of your life. I said, my reading and my talking to the doctors says that if you remove the parasite from the body, you can actually get rid of malaria. And so I said, you know, you'll have to give us a chance, because we have this funding, and we don't want to waste it when the mayor's are not convinced to support it. And so I think because the governor and the vice governor were supporting it, you know, they couldn't do anything but support it too. And so I said, let me go down to the legislative body of each of the municipalities, and explain how the project is going to be run. I did not want to spend a lot of funds hiring people. And so I said, the structure that I have in mind is a community based approach. And I will go to the community where the malaria is highly endemic. I said, I have to let the people know that they need to act as a community, but I needed the help of the municipalities, the mayors and the vice mayors and the legislative body, because I will set up a group of volunteers that will do community based diagnosis. So I had to set up community laboratories. And so the laboratories were manned by volunteers, usually the mothers, because when I went to the communities, the male population were at work. So I had the mothers with me, and I have to talk to them and say, you know, you have these kids that are getting sick, and are absent in their schools all the time, because you think it's malaria. You have a husband, who's working hard, And once he gets fever, you think it's malaria. I said lets know for once if this is really malaria, with the help of the Department of Health, and the provincial health offices, we actually set up the community laboratories. So we got a volunteer, a resident of the community, trained them for 35 days in how to look at a microscope and look for the malaria parasite, do the blood screening and the like, but I needed governance to do that. I needed the help of the local government units to step up the parameters for doing all of this. And of course, these were volunteers. So I had to go back to the mayors and the legislative body and say, they're doing such a great job, give them some incentive. I mean, for the first time, we know the status of malaria in your community. For the first time, it's not just you know, "we think" and "it's probably" - so now for the first time you know that you have the number of confirmed cases. And when we know the problem, we know we can solve. And so it started hard, and even the communities felt that if I have malaria once I will have malaria for the rest of my life. There was a lot of re-education that needed to be done, information dissemination that needed to be done. So we went to schools, mother classes, anything and everything that we can do to promote the knowledge on how to prevent malaria. Because the money was only good for setting up all of the 344 community microscopies - but what do you do when you know that, you know they have malaria. It was such a good faith that the Japanese government came in with 75,000 mosquito nets for the province and the drugs to treat malaria. So now there's a very nice synergy of two big programs that were implemented together. And so in 5 years actually the cases of malaria dropped by 65%.

Safa: Wow, what a great decrease. So you talk about the importance of establishing or fostering buy-in from the local government authorities at the different levels, but also the other stakeholders involved, what were some of the ethical challenges that you were faced with when building those relationships, building trust, trying to get everyone on board and having clarity around who is responsible for what part of the project?

Marvi: Yes, I think transparency is a very important aspect of project implementation. Everybody knew that I was able to get $1 million dollars. So in any eyes, that's like a lot of money. And so I needed to show everybody how I spent it. I created avenues so that I can just spread it out, this is where the money went. And this is how much a microscopy training with cost. So when you have 35 days, and you have all of these resources coming from Manila, and I have to house them, usually in well lit hotels, because you know, you have to have the right lighting for teaching microscopy. And so I think those were the things that were very important - for them to see that, you know, I was working, working as hard as they were. And I wasn't like, you know, being a prima donna on anything - I dirtied my hands, I sat down with them, I stayed in the community for weeks. You know, you have to build trust. And the trust is when you are consistent with your message, you are transparent. And they see that you are as passionate as you want to be to help them get rid of the parasite, get rid of the scourge of malaria in their communities. I think when everybody sees that - from the governor's, from the provincial government, to the municipal government, and even the communities that you help, and they see that you're there as a helping hand, and not, you know, somebody who's lording them around and the like, and I think it shows. It shows when you're sincere in trying to help. And I think those are the real values that I can share. Because I think when one is dishonest about something, if you're caught lying, then you're a liar, no matter how small it is. And therefore, my mom taught me that. If you lie in you are caught lying, the next time you speak, 11 out of the 10, will not be believed. And so it's something that you carry on, you carry something that, you know, those are values that I share, you know, with all of the team members that I have, I share that value. And I continue to share that value, even if I have grown and have become a bigger leader, for example, in the organization.

Safa: Yes. So in that dynamic, there's also, of course, the involvement, or the role of the donors or the funders. So later on, when you were awarded the grant from the Global Fund, how has it been to also work with them and negotiate each other's maybe different opinions or different perspectives?

Marvi: Yes, I think because of the success of the initial program, in Palawan, I don't think we went unnoticed. You know, we were getting visitors from the World Health Organization, and then the Global Fund. And then when the Global Fund saw what we've done, they said, I think you should apply for a grant. They have a structure, they have the country coordinating mechanism, and all of these structures that you have to go through. And the first thing that needs to be done is to figure out how this proposal that we're going to put out was going to compete with a country proposal for malaria. And the Global Fund only funds one disease per country. So there's usually three diseases. So there's HIV, malaria and tuberculosis, but there's only going to be one grant for malaria. So when you're working in the province with the highest incidence of malaria, and you've shown that you're doing it in the community based way, you know, people actually saw that I might be competing with a country proposal, that's the first hurdle that I had to go through. And so I had to sit down with the Department of Health and, you know, we agreed that, you know, you cannot just be doing this for Palawan, you will have to do it for the top five provinces of the country, at least. So as a compromise, that's basically what our first proposal to the Global Fund was. And we got that, we got that proposal approved. And of course, it was a shock to me. Global Fund then was also just starting, and they were changing policies left, right and center. And you know, you're just trying to adhere to one policy. And after three or four months, they think that it's better to do this. And so you know, you scratch your head, but you continue, because we knew that the funds were big enough to be able to impact a lot of people. There was a lot of confusion during the first years of the Global Fund implementation. But we were resilient. We wanted to be, because the funding was enormous. And we knew that the big funding was going to help a lot of people. And it did, because the first grant, I think we got $14.3 million, to cover the top five provinces of the country. And in three years time, we actually put two of them in pre-elimination stage. So that means they were already going below, going into a stage where you can actually control the malaria incidence in that area. So that was such a big success. And so we continued to request for grants every round. And so from five, we went to forty provinces. And of course, that's even bigger money. But there's a lot of rigidity in how they do things. And, you know, performance framework and how you do this, we have local fund agents that check on us every six months, on how we spent the money and how we are achieving our targets, you know. But I'm one person, though, that does not get upset with audits. I like audits because, you know, I cannot look at everything all by myself. And although you have a team that you trust, you want an outside look to tell you that, yes, you're doing a great job, or, you know, a few things here that you need to check on and to probably change. But I don't mind that at all. Because I know that the audits that are being done will actually make our team improve, and make the implementation of the program in the country improve. I look at them as having the ability to have all of the experts in their hands, and be able to guide us where to go. I mean, we have to give them the local context, how we do things here, and how the communities perceive this interventions. And you know, when you put those things together, I think it's a big marvel to see how things work when the synergy is actually done correctly. I mean, there are other grants that are high handed in how they want to handle things. But the Global Fund seems to be able to listen to how the countries do it. And they actually insist that, you know, when we do the proposal, it has to be something that the countries accept, and that the key affected populations are actually consulted. And I think that is the right way to do it. They have the funds, they need to bring the funds out, because that's their mandate, but they listen to what the country can do and how we do things. And I think that's important.

Safa: Right, absolutely, yes. In relation to that, you mentioned how the province wide program was so successful that then it expanded to a nationwide program, you continued to receive funding, but not only for the malaria program, but also for an HIV program. And that work also involved really building relationships with community members in remote areas, in areas with indigenous communities. Could you share a bit with us about what it's also been like to build relationships with community leaders or tribal leaders, and have that be a part of your work or your role as well?

Marvi: I think the malaria program was such a vehicle for a lot of the help that the communities actually got. Because, you know, when one is immersed, as I was during the initial stages of the program, I saw that the indigenous people were, you know, having a hard time. They have a set of needs that are not explicit when one looks at communities - and you come in and you still want to promote the malaria program and make the implementation of the malaria program good. And so what is it that they need that needs to be done? And so you sit down with them and in the same manner as you have to get the buy-in of the mayors and the vice mayors, you have to get the buy-in of the chiefdoms and community members. They're not very trusting. When you come in, you're basically seen as an outsider, and not part of the tribe, right? We have a way of working with them. And I look at this by bringing in the critical tree analysis, you know, you put up the tree, draw it on the sand, or on the ground and say, you know, this is a tree, and when you see the branches getting brown, there must be something wrong with the tree, right? So let's look at that as the malaria problem. What are the root causes of these problems? And then we come in and say, so how do you think we can solve this? So I said, you know, we come in and we give you nets, and you claim that it's too hot to use and so okay, so you don't like using nets. But let's explain, again, why you need these nets. And so you bring that back and forth, and you say the resources are here, we are going to give you all of these resources to respond to some of these problems that you have in this tree. And it's only when they see the light come in and say, Oh, yeah, so that's why we need to use the net, because they bite during the time when we are asleep, not in the day time. Day time would be dengue. And so you know all of these things. But you have to provide it to them in in a way where they chew the problem, little by little, and try to figure out the solution by themselves. Of course we're there to facilitate, we're there to help them. But the buy-in is important. To me, anything that you do in the community, if there's no buy-in, it will never happen. You come in, and they probably will be nice and say yeah, but then you turn around and they won't do it. So you want to be able to come in and get somebody from the community to be your advocate, so that they continue to advocate even when you're no longer there. So those are challenges that I had. But there are other challenges. I think it was very good for me to see all of the problems that are happening on the ground, while we are doing a community based malaria program. Because it's community based, I was able to go to the families, the people in the community, at the community level and figure out the problems that can be supported. For example, you know, we built microscopy centers. And so they have suddenly a community laboratory where a member of the community is actually the one checking their blood, but they don't have power. So one of the things that I've done was to actually go back to Shell and I said, you have solar in your products. And so I said can I ask you please to look for some solar equipment that I can put in the microscopy centers? So we established 344 microscopy centers, but there are health patients that do not have power also, or clinics that do not have power also. And so I was able to get 500 of these individual solar home systems and I was able to put it up in the microscopy centers and some of the hospitals and some of the health stations. And I said, you know, so now every time you see a light, that is your beacon. That means that you've come to a point where there is help. So in a very dark forest when you see suddenly a light, then you know that, you know, help is close by. And so this program actually became a part of a very big program of the foundation, of providing micro-grid system to IP communities. We now have seven of the IP communities that are now well lit. They just flick a switch and they have power in their community. They have lights in the road and they have power to play basketball in the evening or whatever. Even livelihood activities that they can do, they can do better weaving because they have more lights, and they can extend their weaving hours, because there's light. So the malaria program to me is such a manna from heaven, if you can say that, because it has opened up a lot of programs that could have been just ignored. But it's there, and we saw it. It started with just trying to put the microscopy centers with power so that they can continue to diagnose, even during the rainy season, or during the time when the clouds are there and you can have the sun powering the mirror of the microscope, and to become a micro-grid system, micro-grid program that provides power to communities that would not have had the opportunity to have that power, because it is too far from the electric companies or the providers, and therefore, are not in the list of the priority for their development. And then there are others, like, you know, you see that far flung communities, they don't have doctors. The government has health volunteer system. So when we started, you know, we knew that there's what they call the health workers and the community health workers. But most of them were not trained to do any First Aid, or anything about health, actually, they're just there, because it's a requirement to have one health worker in the village. And most of them were being used for political programs and the like. And so one of the other things that I put in was to set up health systems strengthening by capacitating all of these health workers that had been identified by the government anyway - so they're there, the structure is there, but we have to capacitate them so that they can become real health workers, to understand the programs that are being implemented by the Department of Health, and to be able to respond to emergencies, First Aid and the like. We set up the referral system so that they don't become quack doctors and, you know, think that they can now inject or do anything - nothing of that sort. So they just were capacitated to realize that they need to bring this person to the nearest hospital, or, you know, they can respond with First Aid. So we also provided a reference book for them. So it's, you know, I saw this book once where it says: "Villages without Doctors", so "Barrios without Doctors" is what it was. And I thought that this is something really handy. And so I spoke to the Department of Health who actually created that book, and said, can we print it so that all of our health workers can actually have a guide for them to go through when there are no doctors in the barrios, no doctors in the village. With that program, we called it _______, which is "care to help". And that "care to help" actually was able to capacity almost 7,000 village health workers. So again, it came from the malaria program, the malaria program was a vehicle for me to respond to other of the health issues of the communities.

Safa: Hmm, yeah, having a more holistic impact or having a more health system wide strengthening approach. That also leads me to this question around sustainability. So you have over the years had this more long term funding or you've been awarded grants year after year or funding year after year. But in terms of thinking about the actions that need to be taken in order to make these changes sustainable, to make these programs sustainable in the long term. Earlier, you mentioned the importance of having local ownership. But of course, funding is also an issue. So could you speak to us a bit about your approach or the process of trying to make this malaria program sustainable for years to come?

Marvi: From the very start, when I started with just the $1 million from Shell, I knew that the fund was going to be finished pretty soon, right? So even at the start, when I engaged the legislative body, my purpose of approaching the legislative body is to actually get them to have a resolution, or an ordinance supporting the program. And that they can actually put in a budget first to support the community health workers, because they were volunteers, all of them were volunteers. And therefore, you know, how do you sustain the interest of one person, if, you know, it cannot help them get food on the table. So you have to figure out what is the need of the community microscopy so that they stay as community microscopies? And the only thing I can think of is get the local government to pay for their incentives, provide them the proper incentives, recognize their role in the communities, and ensure that they continue to provide the recognition that is required. But also, then you have to ensure that all of these microscopy centers are actually incorporated in the health system. It is not a project, it is part of the health system. And therefore, if it's part of the health system, then the entire work of the Rural Health Unit includes them - focuses on, you know, if we're talking about many diseases, you're not just talking about malaria, but you know that you have these set of volunteers that you can tap, even for other diseases. And I think when you can now start synergizing all of the human resources that are available, and the equipments that are available and provided, and using it for other diseases, then I think the sustainability of that program can be ensured, right. So when you have microscopies that were given just for malaria, then after about five years, we are already talking about why not use the microscopes also, or, you know, looking at worms or tuberculosis or others that need the microscopy centers. When you start integrating the role of these people, then the sustainability of interest of that person to continue to help in the health of the communities is there. But more so because you know that the health system from the municipal health officer, and all of the health systems understand that they are part of their group, and therefore they should be looked after. And as they saw the drop in the cases of malaria, all over the country - you know, there are eighty one provinces in the country. And at the end of 2020, we now have just three provinces that are still affected by malaria. We did not do a country wide approach, we did the provincial wide malaria elimination, and one by one, the provinces were declared malaria free. And therefore, we're now in the last three provinces. And, you know, the Global Fund can claim credit for that, because, you know, the support that they have given is substantial, and has been sustained so that we can get to where we are right now. And this is the plea that I am asking to all of the government, whenever I talk to them, that we've had a lot of gain, we've had a lot of challenges that we have overcome in being able to reach this far, you know, declaring the Philippines as malaria free is reachable. Whenever I talk, I always tell them that, you know, you have to be vigilant, you have to continue your surveillance. If you don't, and this just comes back to a re-introduction of malaria, then we will start all over again. And we don't have the funds to do it.

Safa: Yeah, absolutely. So so far, we've spoken a lot about the specific context of the malaria program, the processes and approaches, but maybe coming to a more personal reflection. Could you share with us a bit about how over the past years how has it been to be working on this issue, being a leader, coming out of retirement, taking on this, you know, large and massive scale of work and responsibility? Have you ever, you know, questioned it or have your motivations changed? Or have you ever felt very overwhelmed by taking this on?

Marvi: All the time, all the time, Safa. I feel that you know, I created monsters around me when I didn't have to - when I could have just put up my feet and read. But looking back, though, it's still a very fulfilling job. I always wanted to help people. And during the first ten years of my stay in Palawan, I've helped a handful. But by being involved in this job, in a corporate foundation such as Philippines Shell Foundation, I was able to help thousands. And now, with the Global Fund, I was able to help millions. The last round is over 12 million. So I think I'm still focused in the fact that I want to be able to share my blessings. There's really no reason why one cannot help. If one can, then why not? And I think I took that path, I took the path of trying my best with everything that I have, with my resources, with my knowledge about things, getting the people to understand where I'm coming from. I like the fact that I see people impacted, I see their lives change. And to me, that is a very nice feeling in the heart. And I'd like to continue.

Safa: Yeah, one step at a time. Wonderful. So this is also something that I wanted to ask you earlier. You know, you work with the Philippine Shell Foundation, a corporate Foundation. There are a lot of questions around the role of private sector actors, or the role of corporate companies, the work that they do on social issues around the world,. How has it been, in your experience, to be affiliated with a corporate foundation? Or what do you see as the potential of the private sector for contributing to community development issues? And maybe some of the ethical issues related to that?

Marvi: I think it's a very good question, because I think a lot of the private sector can actually do wonders by investing in social issues. But I hope that when they do invest, they actually invest in partnership with the local government units. A lot of the private sectors are actually worried about working with local government units, because it can be seen, as you know, bribery, anti-corruption policies are being compromised, and the like. But I think if you do it well, and you are very clear that it is not perceived as a bribery, then I think the private sector can actually help. And luckily, for me, actually, it doesn't seem to be a cost, because it looks like when I make a proposal to the management, I have never really factored in what's in it for the business. I factored in that, you know, what's in it for the business would be good relationship, good relationship with community, very good reputation for bringing up a program like that. And unlike other organizations where, you know, they have social investments, and it actually comes back to them as profit. And because the foundation that I work for is really nonprofit, we're not allowed to make money. And therefore, you know, we have to be efficient. I deal with it as a business, because I have to make sure that, you know, we don't waste funds. But because the business is actually not putting me on the strings, so to speak, I am able to implement programs without strings attached. But it gives them good reputation. So if we can engage the private sector to just do that - be content with the reputational gain that they have for helping in issue, then they become very good neighbours, and the acceptability of their operations in the community is actually ensured, right? And as a recipient of the fund, of the Global Fund, it is very important for us to be very good stewards of the fund. Because Shell has a global reputation. And can you imagine if I - sorry for the word - screw up, and not be able to show that funds are used well? The reputation that I am going to hurt by doing that. So I'm always on my toes to think that for every move that I make, I make it because I'm doing a good job. And I'm doing it because it's impacting the people. If I use that as my first priority, then the reputation gain to the companies that I serve, are actually going to balloon to their advantage. And basically, I think that's how I see the private sector. They have - the opportunity for them to help in the social causes are there. And if they're operating in the communities where those social injustices and social issues are available, then it will be good for them to help because the non-technical issues of the operations can actually be ensured. Having people support you in the community is paramount to working smoothly in that community.

Safa: Right, it all comes back to the relationships in the end. So Marvi just as a last question, you know, you have recently started your own foundation. Could you maybe tell us about the story behind starting your own foundation? And maybe if you have plans for your second retirement, or what are your thoughts right now, in terms of your next steps?

Marvi: Well, I went to my boss, and I said, I'm going to put up my foundation, but it's not going to be competing or in conflict with what I'm doing at the Shell Foundation. I was approached by a 36 year old lady who has stage three cancer, and didn't know what to do. And she showed me her prescription, and I didn't know how to help her. So I went to the social media and I did the crowdsourcing, I said, how do I help, and I gave the details - not giving the name, but giving the details in her situation like this. And then I cannot believe the barrage of information that was given to me. You know, go to the biggest social welfare, go to this, go to that. And I kept looking at all of this information that I got. And then I realized that because I have been working in the health sector, working on health issues, I have actually put up a lot of network in health. And so I, you know, I called up one person, and who is with the Department of Health, and I said, do you have these medicines? And then he said yea, we have a medicine assistance program. And within that night, so on the first day that I approach everyone via social media, within that night, I got everything in the prescription. And so I was crying, and I was saying, I can help some more. You know, I didn't go to offices and knock on their doors, all I needed to do was pick up the phone and call up people, and you know, all of this, and I'm able to help one person. And that one person became a seal for me to say, okay, I will put up another foundation that looks into helping individuals that are almost hopeless in their feeling, because the prices of drugs are so exorbitant, and they know that they cannot afford it on their own, navigate the health system for them, and be able to help them as much as I can. And I started this in 2019. And of course, there's the pandemic last year. But even with that, I have now helped 13 people in this cause, and I haven't even put up all my time in helping these people. I have volunteers that have helped me screen the people and provide the medicines. I'm able to get the medicines according to the prescription that they have. And I talk to their oncologist. And the oncologist would say they don't want to keep the medicines. So I had to get a refrigerator to put the medicines, I needed to make sure that the medicines are handled well. Because it's needed for the chemotherapy of these patients. So there you go Safa, I mean, I've just started. And I actually this week have just gotten the approval for the registration. I hope that I can continue that, you know, work after I re-retire when I am officially out of the corporate foundation, and I'm able to be on my own. I hope I can continue to help people.

Safa: Yes, congratulations on that. Very exciting. And you know, you're very busy woman and we congratulate you on all your great accomplishments. And thank you so much for speaking with me today.

Marvi: Thank you Safa.

Safa: Thank you so much Marvi, I really appreciated. Thank you also to our listeners for tuning in and supporting the podcast. I invite you to join in on the conversation by going to our website, hitting the send us a voice message button and sharing some of your thoughts with us. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your preferred podcast player, rate and review past episodes and share our conversations with your friends. You can also keep up to date with our latest episodes and offerings by signing up for our newsletter on our website and following us on social media. On our website, you can also find a donation link where you can choose either a one time donation or reoccurring monthly donation option to help us cover our production costs. Thank you again for tuning in. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all next time. Until then, take care.